Marti:  Malidoma we were talking just before the break and you were saying these eloquent things and one thing that really caught my attention was you were speaking about when we're in nature and really tuning into nature instead of our ego structures, we actually begin to experience that we are a product of some very beautiful big forces that---some cultures say that we're sung into being or we're spoken into being by the Earth or the power of nature or the deities---and this is really important!  We are part of something huge and what we need to do is to remember that collective technology, that capacity for inclusiveness.  You were speaking about our losing that capacity for inclusiveness and part of that, I think, is the shifting into realizing that we are a product, we're not God, we are the speech of the gods.

I'd like to talk a little bit about what happens at the level of leadership in modern culture because when we get to the level of leadership we get people who are running companies and governments and communities and systems and they start to think that they are completely in control of creating everything.  I think that if we ever needed to reinstate shamanic technology, it would be at those points of influence.  I'd love to just hear your views on this and I'd love for us to just toss some ideas back and forth about how we do that, how we get people awake to the requirement for regaining this knowledge.

Malidoma:  Well this is more like a can of worms!

Marti:  Yeah!  (Laughs)

Malidoma:  There are a lot of ideas in there!  The first thing that comes to mind is the fact that once we have a way of tuning into nature, we begin to realize that as part of nature we are indeed responsible for continuity, sustainability, and indeed the ongoing production of abundance that Earth, as the archetypal home, the great home and the Great Mother affords us.  This kind of consciousness can be generative of tremendous deployment of responsible action and responsible living, the first one being that we've become therefore defined as one piece of consciousness in a sea of consciousness and therefore needing a tune-in into the frequency of this vast chant and song of consciousness that the world can answer, that nature offers us.  Then there are endless possibilities for exercising leadership because we know that nature utters more presence than absence and therefore certain language and certain words that we use will begin to fade out, like "scarcity," and the phrase "there's not enough for everybody!"  

The necessity of understanding that it takes a sense of sustained community in order for productivity to become the expression of that unity and also the expression of abundance, etc., etc., from such a mindset to a corporate mindset---the road is not that long!  From such a mindset to a sense of oneness in a nation, in a country, in a culture---the road is not that far!  So the question always remains, what is it that we either refuse to learn or are ignoring about nature that is being translated in these modern days in terms of all these fixations with scarcity, i.e., the economy plummeting all the time, people worrying about tomorrow and not knowing how they're going to make both ends meet, etc.  There comes a time when certain problems pertaining to abundance cannot be resolved unless we have a way of tuning back into the frequencies of nature towards a certain kind of radical refurbishing of our conscious constitution if we want to establish the kind of abundant continuity that responsible living requires.

Marti:  As humans beings we have this crazy kind of consciousness---we've been given this little linear component that has speech and logic and choice. I always tell my students that it's really a late evolutionary gift designed to get us from the cave door to the river and back again without getting eaten by a saber-tooth tiger!

Malidoma:  That's right!  (Laughs).

Marti:  And that's it!  (Laughs).

Malidoma:  (Laughs).  We need the one that can get us from the hole to the river, and in the course of the round trip, we just walk with the tiger!  We don't need to define the tiger as the eater of man!

Marti:  Yeah, exactly!  You would think that at this point, with enough suffering going on in the world that somebody or some leaders who can make change happen would realize, as you said---I love that you said this---"The road is not that long to reclaiming this technology of energy, this consciousness..."---and I love your phrase---"for a radical refurbishing of well-being on the planet!" It's really a beautiful way to say it!

What do you think governments would like?  Let's say that you and I could walk into the White House and start teaching?  What do you think could happen?  What's possible?

Malidoma:  Oh My God!  There would be a landslide of consciousness in the proper direction, with government becoming therefore the leading agent of the ritual alignment with the Earth that we're in, transforming nation into sacred land, sacred ground in which various gateways are contemplated as a source of inspiration and transformation for the people.  All of a sudden, leadership and service, humble service would become literal, and the White House would be the shrine that is a representation of a people's vision of what oneness with nature can definitely produce.

Marti:  That's a beautiful vision; it's a beautiful vision!

Malidoma:  One may call it idealistic but these kinds of ideals are really worth entertaining because they shed some bright light in the daily darkness that seems to visit us on and off.  It is useful for us to realize how actually the merging of the branches of our government to nature can translate into a world that abides by the laws of nature in such a way that everybody becomes suddenly, highly significant and important for the welfare of the whole.

Marti:  Yeah, it's brilliantly said, it's brilliantly said!  There is actually nothing in nature that lives outside of the system and every part of the system is vitally important and you can't separate the parts from the whole, you literally cannot do it.

Malidoma:  It is not possible because once separation happens, that's the beginning of the end and all of a sudden, isolation is produced and the great risk of loss and sensitivity and belonging and identity---all of these are signs of cataclysmic events piling themselves up in the lives of individuals.

Marti:  Yeah, and I think the loss of identity, this pulling away from nature, pulls us away from the Earth, and that's a core knowledge in our bones, in any human being's bones.  If we're connected to the Earth, we start to experience this sense of belonging and then we quit fighting one another!

Malidoma:  That's right!  Once this happens, of course those fly-by wars will stop, because we have no more reason to do so.  We'll be too busy being with the natural order of things to actually fight with each other!  (Laughs)

Marti:  (Laughs).  Yeah, that's great!  Brilliant!

This is always the point in the show where I want another hour and we've only got eight or nine minutes left so we'd like to give you, the listeners, a very clear idea of the structure of indigenous technology.  So we're gonna talk about energy gateways and we're gonna talk about the beings from the Other World and their role in helping us maintain well-being. I've spoken a little bit about the mountain spirits that we work with in South America, but Malidoma, I'd like for you to talk about the gateways and the Kontombl� and the Wedeme so people have an idea---there are a lot of different kinds of beings that are very real.

Malidoma:  That's a great place to begin on what has indeed become the area of great excitement in my ongoing study of the Other World through nature. One of the reasons why we are really interested in getting people to reacquaint themselves with nature is because in the process of doing that, you discover that you're not alone!

Marti:  Yeah!

Malidoma:  In fact, the whole idea of isolation is a man-made idea and there are all kinds of beings that are constantly staring at us, wishing us well, looking at us as potential interlocutors of people to interact with and yet will not interfere unless we give them permission.  And therefore going into nature, what I've discovered started with my Initiation a long time ago when I realized that a tree could become a living consciousness that I can interact with like I'm interacting with another person!

Thirty years into that I've discovered something as mountain spirits, but more importantly I've gotten to know we have in our midst, the whole idea of little people, which we call in my culture Kontombl�.  Kontombl� are the closest to our dimension that are interested in us the same way as a guide or mentor is interested in a mentee.  There is something about this dimension, this wonderful dimension we're in that interests Kontombl� and Kontombl� have always wanted to guide us into seeing that which is hidden from our eyes as if somehow they are there as engineers for the maximization of our optical lenses for us to focus more into the beauty that is facing us.  Kontombl�, which is very widely known among Dagara people, are ones that we cannot live without.  We cannot ignore the relationship with nature leading to a relationship with other beings for which nature is also a habitat.

From there we go to the people known as the Wedeme, which we translate as "the beings from the wild," that is to say, those who have taken nature as a living space because it is so beautifully, sophisticatedly built that there is nothing to add to it.  And so they live there and they want us to come and join them because we are products of that beautiful environment as they are, and they would love to dance with us in such a way that our own consciousness can rise to a level that gives humans a chance of becoming a source of great wisdom!  So I love this idea, because basically the things that are constantly presented to modern people in the media about the Other World, the supernatural world will somewhere down the road become a fact, something concrete that they can experience individually, collectively, that at least it will begin to extend the realm of consciousness to include other living entities as vibrant as the trees, the plants, that can eventually add to the richness of our consciousness.

Marti:  Yes, this is really, really important!  I want to remind the listeners of something that I've said in previous shows---let's just come back to ordinary human "being-ness"---in your brain, the same cells that perform the function we call imagination, perform the functions that we call perception.  So many of you have had experiences with the Other World and you're probably telling yourself, "Oh I made it up, it's not real!"  Malidoma and I are here to tell you that it is REAL, and Malidoma, I think you would agree with this:  getting someone to have a direct experience with the Other World, literally being touched by one of these spirits is the fastest way to reclaim one's indigenous nature, wouldn't you agree?

Malidoma:   Absolutely!  You've got that nailed down!  There is such a thing as the "touch of the Other World" that alters a person forever!  And we cannot be touched unless we show up to be touched!  Otherwise, it's not gonna happen and therefore the invitation here is to allow ourselves, to make ourselves available for this embrace so that eventually our lives can sign up for this kind of richness that we know deep down we are longing for.  We know deep down that nothing material or whatever can fill that void; only something supernatural, spiritual can do that. So it is time that we responded to the longing of our psyche by checking in with magical nature.

Marti:  That's beautifully said!  I hope everybody is really soaking this up!  There's no way to prove this. People ask me for proof.  There's no way to prove it, your own experience is the only way that you will understand, the only way that you will change.

Malidoma:  And we also have to understand that proof is not necessarily the voice of reality.  Proof can just be yet another way of enrolling somebody into the vote for a certain kind of reality.  However, there is a reality such as this one that requires only one vote; it is the vote for ourselves.  When that happens, nobody can take that away.

Marti:  Oh, that's brilliantly said!  Malidoma, thank you so much for blessing Awakening Value with your presence and your wisdom!

Malidoma:   Thank you for including me in this wonderful program!

To read Part 1 of this interview, see our July/August 2012 issue in the E-Village News Archives from our website--click here .