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SHOCKING,
Proverbs 8, REFUTES Trinity and
those who argue Jesus was ONLY an ordinary mortal man WRONG.
By Simon Brown.
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Trinitarians tell me Proverbs 8.22 through to 36 is not about Jesus.
And yet on the other hand there are many Trinitarians who also teach the opposite, that Proverbs 8.22 through to 36, IS about Jesus.
So who should we believe?
As Trinitarians can't decide what they believe and are still arguing, this research on a Trinitarian site was certainly very helpful for me and was probably the best article I have ever read called: STUDIES ON PROVERBS Exposition: Proverbs 8:1-36.
The article above gives many excellent explanations and Bible references to why the "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8 is the chief subject of this chapter, and makes it evident that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Himself.
However we must always do our own research.
But may I help you?
You don't have to believe me.
But you do need to believe Jesus.
And I will prove to you, they are not my words, but Jesus.
In short lets turn to some scriptures and see if
'' Wisdom''
is connected to the word/Jesus?
All scriptures are by English Standard Version, unless otherwise stated.
Therefore also the
Wisdom of God said,
'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,'
Luke 11:49
but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and
the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:24.
Notice how 1 Corinthians 1:24, states
Christ (IS) the power of God and
the wisdom of God.
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus,
who became to us
wisdom from God,
righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
1 Corinthians 1:30
Notice how 1 Corinthians 1:30, says:
Christ Jesus,
who became to us
wisdom from God.
that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ,
in whom are hidden all the treasures of
wisdom and knowledge.
Colossians 2:2 - 3.
Notice how Colossians 2:2 - 3, says:
which is Christ,
wisdom and knowledge.
Also look at how Colossians 2:2 - 3 compares with Matthew 13:35 below in the fact both scriptures are about:
knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ,
in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Colossians 2:2 - 3.
And as we see it was Jesus who fulfilled the scriptures and revealed the hidden secrets as we are told:
what was spoken by the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."
Matthew 13:35
Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice?
Now lets read the whole message of Proverbs 8:1-21, and make a new discovery and meet me again at verse 17.
The Blessings of Wisdom
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 On the heights beside the way,
at the crossroads she takes her stand;
3 beside the gates in front of the town,
at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:
4 "To you, O men, I call,
and my cry is to the children of man.
5 O simple ones, learn prudence;
O fools, learn sense.
6 Hear, for I will speak noble things,
and from my lips will come what is right,
7for my mouth will utter truth;
wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are righteous;
there is nothing twisted or crooked in them.
9 They are all straight to him who understands,
and right to those who find knowledge.
10 Take my instruction instead of silver,
and knowledge rather than choice gold,
11for wisdom is better than jewels,
and all that you may desire cannot compare with her.
12 "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,and I find knowledge and discretion.13 The fear of the LORD is hatred of evil.Pride and arrogance and the way of eviland perverted speech I hate.14 I have counsel and sound wisdom;I have insight; I have strength.15 By me kings reign,and rulers decree what is just;16 by me princes rule,and nobles, all who govern justly.
17. I love those who love me,and those who seek me diligently find me.
Can you see how these scriptures in Proverbs 8:17 compares with what Jesus said below.
Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."
John 14:21
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Matthew 7:7
For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Matthew 7:8
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:13
Back to Proverbs.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
enduring wealth and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold,
and my yield than choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
in the paths of justice,
21 granting an inheritance to those who love me,
and filling their treasuries.
Proverbs 8:1-21.
Now how about reading:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
VIII.
(n). Fourteenth Discourse:-The Praise of Wisdom (Proverbs 8)
(1) Doth not wisdom cry?-See above on Proverbs 1:20. In contrast with the secret allurements of Vice under the cover of night, is here represented the open invitation of Wisdom. (Comp. John 18:20:
Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret.
This is also interesting to read, others agree,
The Wisdom here is Christ.
Commentary
Matthew Henry Commentary
8:12-21 Wisdom, here is Christ, in whom are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; it is Christ in the word, and Christ in the heart; not only Christ revealed to us, but Christ revealed in us. All prudence and skill are from the Lord. Through the redemption of Christ's precious blood, the riches of his grace abound in all wisdom and prudence. Man found out many inventions for ruin; God found one for our recovery. He hates pride and arrogance, evil ways and froward conversation; these render men unwilling to hear his humbling, awakening, holy instructions. True religion gives men the best counsel in all difficult cases, and helps to make their way plain. His wisdom makes all truly happy who receive it in the love of Christ Jesus. Seek him early, seek him earnestly, seek him before any thing else. Christ never said, Seek in vain. Those who love Christ, are such as have seen his loveliness, and have had his love shed abroad in their hearts; therefore they are happy. They shall be happy in this world, or in that which is beyond compare better. Wealth gotten by vanity will soon be diminished, but that which is well got, will wear well; and that which is well spent upon works of piety and charity, will be lasting. If they have not riches and honour in this world, they shall have that which is infinitely better. They shall be happy in the grace of God. Christ, by his Spirit, guides believers into all truth, and so leads them in the way of righteousness; and they walk after the Spirit. Also, they shall be happy in the glory of God hereafter. In Wisdom's promises, believers have goods laid up, not for days and years, but for eternity; her fruit therefore is better than gold.
Can you now see the connection with Jesus and Wisdom?
Proverbs 8.22 through to 36 was another one of many scriptures which persuaded and proved to me two major facts.
Follow me as we examine Proverbs 8.22 through to 36.
So you can decide for yourself,
did Wisdom the word who became flesh in Jesus,
Always Exist?
22" The LORD POSSESSED ME at the beginning of his work,
THE FIRST OF HIS ACTS OF OLD.
Proverbs 8.22 confirms with Colossians 1:15, which says Jesus is the (Firstborn).
He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all creation.
23 Ages ago I WAS SET UP,
AT THE FIRST, BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE EARTH.
Proverbs 8.23 confirms with John 1:1, saying:
In the beginning was the word.
A QUICK EXAMINATION OF JOHN 1:1
Do we, or do we not believe and agree the very first statement of John 1:1 is a correct translation?
So far from my research, there is no dispute with the very first part of St John's statement:
In the beginning was the Word.
Meaning Jesus was God's word, Gods mouth. Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy. Jesus was His Fathers messenger.
Now lets understand the meaning of the word "beginning" by looking at the LEXICON translation.
Means literally "the initial (starting point)
St John is confirming Jesus had a beginning and was with God the Father before and at the beginning of ALL creation.
Notice, St John does not say anything like in the beginning the word Jesus ALWAYS existed,
but instead says In the 'beginning' (starting point) was the Word.
In fact there is not ONE single scripture which says Jesus always existed, and if you know of one,
please do prove me wrong as I am still learning like you.
Strong's Concordancearch�: beginning, origin Part of Speech: Noun, FeminineTransliteration: arch� Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay') Short Definition: ruler, beginning Definition: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning. HELPS Word-studies 746 arxḗ - properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initia l(starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent"). St John must know more about Jesus then anyone. St John was the closest disciple of Jesus and literally lived with Jesus and had plenty of time to ask Jesus this very important fact. In John 1:1 from St John's own lips he confirms Jesus had a beginning and does not say Jesus always existed, which is why St John said: In the beginning was the Word.
Meaning Jesus had a (starting point)
When there were no depths
I WAS BROUGHT FORTH,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills,
I WAS BROUGHT FORTH,
26 before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
The next verse confirms that GOD created the world THROUGH HIS SON Jesus, confirming also that the word who became flesh in the person of Jesus pre-existed before Mary.
Proverbs 8:30.
then I was beside him,
and I was daily his delight,rejoicing before him always,
Proverbs 8:30 confirms with:
Through
(Jesus) whom also he created the world.
Hebrews 1:2.
Which also confirms with:
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:3.
Proverbs 8:31, continued.
rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man.
32"And now, O sons, listen to me:
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
and do not neglect it.
34 Blessed is the one who listens to me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting beside my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and obtains favor from the LORD,
36 but he who fails to find me injures himself;
all who hate me love death."
Conclusion.
What are the two major facts?
Fact 1.
We do not need to be a Bible scholar or scientist to establish Proverbs 8.22 through to 36 is also about the word/Jesus:
The Wisdom in Christ.
who:
WAS BROUGHT FORTH.
Meaning the word/Jesus did not always exist.
But had a starting point and was BORN.
Now if you are a Trinitarian and are thinking the verse:
WAS BROUGHT FORTH,
has nothing to do with proving Jesus did not always exist and does not prove He was BORN, then please read what King David had to say in verse 5:
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
Psalm 51:1 - 6.
English Standard Version
Create in Me a Clean Heart, O God
1 Have mercy on me,a O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! 3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
Wow, do you see what I see?
Kind David said the exact words as Jesus, when King David said:
Behold,
I WAS BROUGHT FORTH.
Psalm 51:5.
Jesus said:
When there were no depths
I WAS BROUGHT FORTH.
Twice in Proverbs 8: 24 and 25.
King David was telling us he was BORN,
and conceived in sin by his mother.
Jesus was telling us the same,
that He was BORN and conceived by His Father GOD.
Except the GREAT difference from King David is the fact Jesus was BORN PERFECT as his father GOD.
If the two statements by Jesus in Proverbs 8: 24 and 25, do not mean Jesus was BORN meaning:
BROUGHT FORTH,
but always existed,
then the exact same words King David used in Psalm 51:5,
Behold,
I WAS BROUGHT FORTH.
Do not mean David was BORN but always existed.
But as we all know Kind David was BROUGHT FORTH,
meaning BORN, from his mother.
As we humans are all BROUGHT FORTH,
meaning BORN from our mother.
And as King David in sin.
For those who argue Jesus was a mere man and did not exist before Mary,
Jesus confirms here in Proverbs 8:30.
He was with GOD before ALL CREATION and:
Jesus is GODS SON,
and messenger which confirms Jesus did not always exist,
but was the first to exist.
Colossians 1:15, which says Jesus is the (Firstborn).
Fact 2.
Proverbs 8.22 through to 36 confirms with many other scriptures that GOD created the world THROUGH His Son Jesus.
Well, that's what I believe, because I believe what the scriptures say.
Next week I will send countless scriptures confirming Jesus existed before Mary.
Thank you for joining me in this Bible study.
As this is interesting to read what Gill's has to say on this subject below who seems to also agree.
May you be blessed for seeking the truth of the
ONE TRUE GOD
and His
ONE TRUE BEGOTTEN SON.
I am Simon Brown. Amen.
King James Bible
Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Psalm 89:27.
Also I will make him my firstborn,.... Or, "make him the firstborn"; make him great, as Jarchi interprets it; give him the blessing, the double portion of inheritance: so Christ is made most blessed for ever, and has all spiritual blessings in his hands; and is heir of all things, and his people joint-heirs with him. Christ is God's "firstborn", or "first begotten", Hebrews 1:6, being begotten by him, and of him; and his firstbegotten, though none begotten after him; as the first that opened the womb, under the law, was called the firstborn, though none were ever born after; and in such sense his first begotten, as that he is his only begotten: and he is the firstborn, with respect to creatures; "he is the firstborn of every creature"; Colossians 1:15,BEING BEGOTTEN AND BROUGHT FORTH BEFORE ANY CREATURE WAS IN BEING, PROVERBS 8:22, and, with respect to the saints, "he is the firstborn among many brethren", Romans 8:29, they are of the same nature, and in the same family, and in which Christ is a son, and the firstborn; and in all things he has the preeminence; and he is also "the firstborn from the dead", or "the first begotten of the dead", Colossians 1:18 being raised first from thence by his own power, and to an immortal life; and is the first fruits of them that sleep, and the efficient and meritorious cause of the resurrection of life, and the pattern and exemplar of it: even him the Father promises to make "higher than the kings of the earth"; having a kingdom of a superior nature to theirs, and a more extensive and durable one; and even they themselves shall be subject to him; hence he is called "King of kings", Revelation 19:16. This will be when their kingdoms become his; when they shall fall down before him, and worship him, and bring their riches and glory into his kingdom, or the New Jerusalem church state, Psalm 72:10. This passage is interpreted of the Messiah by the Jews (f). (f) In Shemot Rabba, s. 19. fol. 104. 4.
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