 | | Satsang with Edwin van Ouwerkerk and Switzerland - 22.5.2011 |
Edwin van Ouwerkerk - Satsang, 22.05.2011 Olten,Switzerland
http://vimeo.com/24111820
Antje: Hello - can you see me?
Edwin: Yes, I can see you.
Antje: Can you clearly hear me?
Edwin: I can hear you clearly as well, yes.
Antje: Great.
Edwin: ..move round a bit..
Antje: Move? To the side?
Edwin: No no no no, I mean my camera - my set up.
Antje: Ahh, you move around.
Edwin: Yes.
Antje: So is it fine for you?
Edwin: Yes, perfect.
Antje: We are VERY happy to have you here today and we are very grateful,
Edwin - really.
Edwin: Oh thank you. It`s almost for me an apology that I am not there in person. But sometimes you get lucky that I am there but sometimes not. But this is a great
opportunity to do it on the skype as well. So thank you.
Antje: And I told the group, on Friday, you know I was standing behind Roland and I received the full energy. I am - it is the most intense experience that I had outside Golden City!
Edwin: All right, well that`s very good.
Antje: My kundalini is - I couldn`t believe it when we did yesterday during the mukthi process the chakra dhyana it just went up and again now during the ananda mandala there was no separation between the air and me and so...
Edwin: The more you loose yourself the more the radiation takes over the more it shines and it all happens by itself then. Yes. Great to hear that.
Antje: It seems so, yes.
Edwin: All right, how are your set up over there? Everything ready to go?
Antje: Yes, we are ready.
Edwin: Excellent excellent. Do you want anything to do first or shall I give you a little story to start with or a meditation or you want to start with questions? What do you like?
Antje: I ask the group.
Edwin: Let me say hello to the group.
Antje: They want a story.
Edwin: A story. All right. Let me start with a story. Can I see the group as well?
Antje: Yes.
Edwin: (Waving hands) Hello.
Group: (Waving hands and big joy) Hello.
Edwin: Ah all right I can see them as well. So let me start off with a story then. It is not really a story. I was going to a factual comparison.
Let me start off with the truth. I see the truth as a silent ocean without waves, just still - a still ocean. It`s like deep sleep. A sort of truth without anything knowing of the truth. While a deep sleep there comes a moment when the mind starts to wake up. Some people call it dream when a dream comes up. The dream is like a loud noise over the water over the still water. What does noise do? It will start to create waves. Ripples over the water. Then it all starts with an ´I AM` before the voice is actually spreading.
So first the first floor is the first sound is the ´I AM` before other chatter will start to create these waves on the ocean. And first you have the sound which creates the waves which seems like there are separate sounds and waves but eventually the waves will take form of what the sound is. So in other words the ´I AM` feeling is inside the wave instead of the sound which says I am. It suddenly becomes a wave. Before you know it one wave sees another wave and thinks there is another ´I AM` before you know there is a whole game going on - called life. But in truth the ocean is still the ocean. And what is sounds - emptiness. A wave through air but basically it is nothing.
So we come to the starts: everything is not what it appears to be. It is all a play of sounds or a play of light in this still ocean in this common waveless truth. And just these little waves make the truth wander off and leave it something or it is something that gets an identity and beneath that there are other identities. But it doesn`t have its own identity hence also no other identities. It`s just this one ocean out of which all the identities spring out which is just waves of nothing. And its truth is just joy is just bliss, is the emptiness that which you cannot describe only make poems out of. Which is the feeling of the being whole not any other exterior feeling. And this is what all drives people on the spiritual path because they feel this pulling, pulling towards this silence this joy. But it`s not an experience because there are no waves in this joy it is just joy itself. You can say you are joy. But there is nobody there to experience it. Joy is joy. So that`s the start which is quite deep of course.
Anecdote start today.
So let me start with - are there any people having may be questions or problems or things they are working with themselves which they seem to be stuck on?
Just out of curiosity is it possible to make it move the camera a little bit lower so I can see the people more clear? Otherwise I see the roof. Oh yeah, that`s much better but I don`t see a person on the left side which is on your right side. So...yeah the most left person I cannot see...now I almost see everybody.
Perfect - now I can see you all. Yes. Thank you.
There was a question? (Just sit on a chair which is empty.)
(short talking between Roland and William, who was coming in front of the camera)
William: Hello Edwin- I am William.
Edwin: Hello.
William: I watched your video on the Oneness site and I was very intrigued about that you had found this teacher Robert Adams and that you were practicing his work and seem to be combining that with deeksha and that seemed to be having a strong effect at that time. So my question is how to bring those two paths together or the two teachings together? The self-inquiry and the Oneness University what they teach? How did you bring that together? It`s a question I ask because it`s something I struggle with myself a bit. It`s two ways of, to paths to follow which do not always coincide in terms of the practice.
Edwin: Yes. Yes. A very good question. It seems - yeah if you can sit down somewhere - it seems like a coincidence because the book of Robert Adams was ´Silence of the Heart`, it came about a week after the first deeksha I received. I don`t consider this as a coincidence. It is just something which is given to me. And this was my path and not everybody´s path is the path of self-inquiry because it is a very third eye mental practice. I was very much into the mind trying to analyze everything and trying to figure things out. So what Robert Adams does comes from Ramana Maharshi and is this very simple question ´WHO AM I?`. And I was doing all kinds of spiritual enquiry, exteriorization (note from Edwin: Exteriorization means stepping out of your body. Astral travel is different because you take the astral body along, exteriorization is just the ego that leaves and can do all kind of things away from the body.) going out of your body and I found it all quite fantastic what you could all do but I did not realize that it was all ego based. All these abilities etc. have nothing to do with the truth. It is just a part of the mind.
And this book it showed me the beginning, the source of where everything came from. What these deekshas did - because I kept on receiving deekshas - while doing this meditation ´WHO AM I?` and it`s not a mental question. Only in the beginning it is a mental question by saying ok ´WHO AM I?` and you`re still in the mind. You are trying to figure out ok well I am not this I am not that. And it is all more a mental thing. It`s not that interesting in that point. If you go deeper it is not so much a question that is being asked but it`s like a feeling ´WHO AM I?` without a question.
Nobody is asking the question anymore but there is an unconscious knowing of this question, a searching for this answer without asking it anymore. And when that happens just feel who you are. And when you feel who you are and you receive a deeksha on that it blows up, it disappears. It is like an emotion. When you feel an emotion initially you think it can never disappear. It can be solved but it cannot disappear because the mind thinks everything can be solved, like a problem. For the moment when you try to solve it or you end up with other problems, you end up still stuck with the same thing. Because it cannot be solved, a charge.
For the moment when you start to experience it, just be with it in silence, and especially when you are receiving a deeksha on it because then you put fire on it it starts to melt away. It`s starts to dissipate. Before you know it it the whole emotion it just blows up or you are kept into previous and earlier similar things ...(??)... which happened before that. You can go even before that until you go to the source - (short interruption - Roland: there was a small problem with the network but now I think we are back again) - so eventually go back to the source and it is gone.
Now with emotion you should have probably felt it whereas with the feeling of who you are is a bit strange because you do not expect that which who you are to disappear. Because you think everything else can disappear but not who you are ...(??)... but some mental illusions the wave in the ocean. The moment when you experience the wave and you get deeksha on it it`s gone it simply disappears. You immediately get another layer which refused this. Ramana Maharshi called this the I-I. But yet this again if you experience this it will disappear. And you have this big onion which is being peeled where one layer of who you think you are disappears and a new layer will automatically show up for you to experience. And I call that layers because it feels like layers. I don`t identify with it because I have no identity to identify with there`s nothing true in it. So layers is being again peeled. First is a very strong feeling of I.
Your ´I` is there, strong ´I`-feeling. Or with all the deekshas you have probably been given already the strong ´I`-feeling is already a bit gone. We don`t recognize it but you never change. It`s just a feeling of who you are that changes. So when the strong ´I` disappears that`s this little bit less strong ´ME`-feeling, a ´MY` a ´SELF` a personal feeling. But when that slowly dissipates you go into ´what I am?` - how is it going with the screen? Roland:the screen switches between...now it`s okay. So you end up with the ´I AM` or ´BEINGNESS`. And when this ´BEINGNESS`-feeling dissipates, falls away you get ´AWARENESS`. First is I am aware and then you end up with ´AWARENESS´ itself. And that dissipates. And then you end up with feelings of ´EXISTENCE`. I exist.
And when that falls away you feel that there is ´EXISTENCE`. And when that falls away you feel there is like a space an emptiness. But somebody still feels the space. So when this disappears you can feel distance, large - small. But this is also yet another illusion. When that disappears you have this pure ´I AM`. This ´I AM` here is just another illusion.
And when you go deeper and deeper and deeper you go deeper into the mind. And before you know it the mind starts to dissolve because you go to the source of the mind. Who asked the question in the first place? What is the mechanism that can ask it? And every time when you get a deeksha on it it goes about a hundred times faster than if you do it in a little room in meditation because it`s like putting a power source on the meditation.
You hook it up to a generator to speed the process up. So what normally takes may be tens of years to get just rid of one layer unless you are may be in the mountain it goes faster like Ramana Maharshi stayed at Arunachala ( note: the mountain in India where Ramana lived) which is a very powerful place on earth. It is unbelievable strong. So then you have a generator hooked up to yourself as well. But as you are not in Arunachala in South India you can hook yourself up to this generator called deeksha. And it will go as fast as in Arunachala. So that is you can say a coincidence when this book came to me and doing a practice and finding out that this deeksha was actually a firework or this gasoline on the meditation that speeded things up. I would say it was a gift of Bhagavan himself because it was too much of a coincidence how everything came in sequence. So call that lucky or call it exactly what was needed for this mind to dissolve itself. Does it answer your question a bit?
William: Yeah, thank you very much. (Roland to William: Now you can stand up. I adjust it.) Strangely enough I was chatting with a guy about a year ago and he gave me a download of lots of different teachers. Amongst these teachers, I didn't even look at them for a while I noticed that I had this one by Robert Adams and actually when I saw your video on the Oneness site I was inspired to look at it. I was so taken by it and the only struggle I had with it on the way is that he is not here he is not here as an inspiration to feel. And that sometimes makes it a little bit more difficult not to have a living being or being who offers a satsang or something as an inspiration to continue the practice
Edwin: Yes it is so.
William: But anyway you have answered my question.
Edwin: But you don`t get rid of me so fast. (laughing) Because theory is also nice - you can sit down distance doesn`t matter; it looks a bit strange because I look at you right now but it seems like a little angle because of the camera set up but it doesn`t matter - you feel by yourself a certain personal feeling of who you are. Am I correct?
William: Yes.
Edwin: So have you done the self-inquiry practice?
William: Yes.
Edwin: And how does that go for you?
William: There are subtle shifts that have started to happen like it goes from asking ´WHO AM I?`. If I ask who drinks the water the answer is "I does". I does it. There is a difference between the I and the personal I. This is a little bit a mental concept. There`s a shift towards being a slightly less personal "I".
Edwin: Can I ask you to change places may be towards forward because there is a little difficult with this camera to see you. It makes like almost a dot on my screen. Yes. But now I cannot see you either because - sit on the chair that would be perfect. I don´t scare away the others (smile)...that`s better. Yeah. So just imagine that we are alone sitting there. Not with any skype meeting or with other people. So does you sit completely comfortable with the show.
(There is rustling around William) And nobody is moving away anything (smile). Yes.So if you ask now who you are you have this feeling or automatically coming up about ´ME` of course. I am who I am. There's a feeling of - a personality feeling there. Am I correct? It feels like a ´ME`.
William: Ah ha (yes). There is a feeling coming up. It's like a - yeah it`s like a feeling experience within the body which comes up.
Edwin: Yes. Is it an 'I' feeling a strong ´I` feeling or is it more like a 'ME' feeling which is a little bit less loud?
William: It is a little bit difficult to relate to that question - it feels like an 'I'.
Edwin: Yes. So feel the 'I', just feel it and see what happens - you can close your eyes or keep it open it doesn't matter.
William: Then it starts to vibrate and get bigger...
Edwin: Yeah so keep with it keep with it - and just keep your eyes closed ´cause otherwise you don't know what to do.
William: ...and a pain starts to come around the lower part of my heart.
Edwin: Ok don't get distracted by the pain. Keep on holding the 'I'.
William: Now a very pleasurable feeling comes.
Edwin: Alright - so keep on holding the 'I'.
(some minutes with eye deeksha are following)
Edwin: You keep on holding it - I am still there.
William: Was that a question?
Edwin: No.
William: It`s just a beautiful quietness.
Edwin: Mhm thefeeling of ´I`. Can you feel it?
William: I...
Edwin: It`s very far outbut still there.
William: Yeah you ...(??)... get it. This vibration which is still ´I`.
Edwin: Yes. So keep on feeling it. Keep on being ...(..?..)...-
(long eye deeksha)
Edwin: What about now?
William: I...
Edwin: Can you still feel the 'I` the ´I`-feeling? Or is it now a little bit different feeling - of who you are?
William: It's a different feeling - I'm still aware of the feeling.
Edwin: Yes.
Edwin: So what about a 'ME` a ´ME`-feeling? A ´MY`-feeling?
William: That's more difficult.
Edwin: Yeah. So feel it. And see if you can follow it.
William: It's more difficult to identify.
Edwin: Mhm.
Edwin: It's more in the middle of your body - it`s more it`s concentrated like - if you look at me (Edwin shows it with his hands) it's like this area this area that makes you this feeling of ´ME` (Edwin indicates head and neck area). This is in your case. So just feel it. Feel if there is something there if you say the word ´ME` or `MY` or there is something.
William: Yeah, there is a focus there yeah.
Edwin: Yes. Just hold it.
William: There's a great deal of fear there.
Edwin: Ah hmm.
William: There's ´ME` and a barrier and I don't want to let go of that.
Edwin: Hmm. Yes.
(...some minutes with eye deeksha later...)
William: And now the ´ME` comes back again strongly.
Edwin: Yes, it's like a scaring the fear is holding it.
William: Yeah.
Edwin: Yes. You will find out that if you hold the fear you will hold the 'ME'. So hold the fear for a second. Just feel the fear - can you feel the fear?
William: Yeah - strongly!
Edwin: Well who's feeling it?
Edwin: You are - you and the fear is one and the same. Look at it. Just view it. Otherwise it's just a theory. Just feel the fear and sometimes ask the question `who is feeling it?` and you find out it's one and the same thing.
This way it goes it blows up faster.
(You can hear William in a process)
Edwin: Yes!
(William is breathing hard and emoting)
Edwin: You feel it? (big smile and there is laughing in the group)
William: Oh yeah.
Edwin: It has nothing to do with you...and that is the beauty.
Edwin: Where is it now?
William: It is still there - there's a strong band of it.
Edwin: Can you feel it?
William: The fear?
Edwin: No the 'ME'-feeling which is the same.
William: I feel like this fear and the ´ME` around it pressing in on it.
Edwin: Yes. It's moved a little bit higher - do you feel that? It went up a little bit.
William: It's a bit lighter.
Edwin: So keep on feeling it keep on feeling it.
William: Now I feel the fear moves away.
Edwin: Hmm. What about the 'ME'-feeling?
William: The 'ME'-feeling moves away, too.
Edwin: Hmm. Look at the ´ME` - what is the source of it?
William: Yes.
Edwin: So, hold onto the 'ME'-feeling again.
William: Yeah.
Edwin: Still there?
William: Yeah. Still there.
Edwin: Hmm. So feel that.
William: Now it expands away from me.
Edwin: Yes I call that peeling the onion. It`s moving away it`s like a balloon - keep on feeling it.
William: And then the next bit of fear comes.
Edwin: Yes - keep on feeling the `ME`.
William: Now there's the expansion and a contraction in the middle of it.
Edwin: Yes it sometimes goes up, down, up, down - the pulling back of this contraction of this expansion - the contraction again is the fear that does it. The fear contracts it. The moment when you experience the fear and the ´ME´ - which is one and the same - it expands again until the point that it blows up - so just hold it.
(William is going on with his process.)
Edwin: Yes - you got it now - (big smile) how does it feel?
William: The fear went away.
Edwin: Aha, and what about the 'ME' now? Where did it go?
William: There's no focus.
Edwin: No - is there a 'ME' left? A feeling of ´ME`?
William: It is not clear.
Edwin: No huh! - strange huh! But there's something else now just music. Do you recognize what that is?
William: What`s that?
Edwin: There is something else now which automatically shows up if the bigger ones disappear. So if the music that creates the waves get more silent so less loud then you will suddenly hear the music what underlaysthe loud music which is less loud. So which is the other music? Which - who are you now? ´WHO AM I?`
William: I can hear words but there is something much louder or stronger. And it`s a...
Edwin: Can you give it a name?
William: It`s actually quite palpable it`s almost as a solidity. But it`s a...
Edwin: What does it tell you the word the ´SELF` - how does that feel? Is it the same ´SELF`?
William: It`s strongly it`s strongly alive...
Edwin: Yes.
William: ...and dynamic and...
...it`s moved away again a bit. But for moments it was your voice is there but your voice is almost sinking behind or above or somewhere around its aliveness.
Edwin: Yes. So feel the ´SELF`.
William: Pulsating pulsating...
Edwin: Yes. Yeah I recognize that. Yes.
Can you feel your ´SELF`?
What`s your ´SELF`? By saying be your ´SELF`.
William: No because my focus is on that pulsating.
Edwin: Can you say a little bit more about the pulsating? Or can you name it?
William: Yeah it's almost as though it`s something breathing - it has life - it`s - I'm not as in touch with it now.
Edwin: Ok is it still there?
William: Yes it`s still there but a bit fainter.
Edwin: You say it`s the vibration?
William: It`s more than vibration it`s a it`s a movement it`s like a movement of - a dynamic movement of life that`s like the breathing in and out. It`s more substantial than that. It has it has it has - it`s like as if I was in the sea it`s like the current sea moving me backward and forward it has that...
Edwin: Right right ok. What I feel at the moment is the ´SELF`. The ´SELF`-feeling. May be you don`t feel it but it moves back and forward like a wave at this moment.So just feel what you feel but I call that the ´SELF`. May be you call it something else. Just feel it.
William: Now it feels more personal.
Edwin: Yes.
(after some time) William: It`s a strong feeling but it`s - I can say it`s local.
Edwin: OK, yeah. So feel the local feeling there.
(after some time) William: There is - I come in and out of contact with the edge of it. The edge is the fear which holds back the next expansion.
Edwin: Yes next onion layer.
William: And the fear right now is that I'm taking up the space here and maybe others want to ask some questions.
Edwin: The good thing about this is because it is being recorded everybody can sit in your place and do exactly the same thing. That's why I take you as an example. Because you have done the Robert Adams` movie. Because everybody who views it can also do this for themselves while looking at me. So it is also not just for you but it`s for everybody. So don`t feel like - and we have enough time anyway. We can cut the movie apart or something or make something nice. But this is just for you and me. Yes.
Roland: For me he is our guinea pig.
Edwin: Sorry?
Roland: He is our guinea pig.
Edwin: Indeed indeed. If he likes it or not! J (all laughing)
Edwin: Yes. But to come short then if you say now 'WHO AM I?' - who are you?
William: Do you want me to try to answer that?
Edwin: Well first silently let the question or silently make something pop up from this question. See if something does come up. If nothing comes up then nothing comes up. I was just wondering if this question silently flows around and waits for an answer coming up. Not so much a mental answer but more like the true answer.
William: It`s when I ask the question then the expansion comes.
Edwin: Yes.
William: It is like a...... I also have a fear coming to holding its expansion back.
Edwin: Yes. So do this up and down - I am - ask the question 'WHO AM I?' and let the fear destroy the space that it created by. Just feel the fear that destroys it and you`ll immediately feel behind the fear the expansion pop up. Just do it.
William: Yeah - the expansion comes again.
Edwin: Aha. Yes.
William: When I keep asking the question it keeps blowing up.
Edwin: Yeah keep letting it grow - like a weather balloon let it explodes.
(some time later) William: Now something changes
Edwin: Yes. It is not so much blowing up it`s like it melts - it`s like it evaporates the edge - you feel that?
William: Yeah.
Edwin: You also find out that on the other side of the edge and on the inside of the balloon is this silent water, it`s this truth. This balloon is what you have felt to be you but it is just a balloon just a wave and as you see now it slowly melts away. It's a form of nothingness - nothing to do with nothing.
How`s the balloon now - do you feeling it?
William: I don't feel the balloon anymore.
Edwin: Is it gone?
William: It's gone - yes.
Edwin: So who are you?
William: I feel just a vibration.
Edwin: Yes. So who are you?
William: I don't know.
Edwin: Yes. A lot of people stop at saying 'I DON`T KNOW` and now the trick comes where the deeksha can help, is to zoom in. And there are 1000's and 1000's of layers still to be waitedbeyond this 'I don't know`. And I'll give you a couple. For example I said before ´I am aware`. Are you aware right now or not?
William: Yeah there`s an - I don`t know.
Edwin: Or can you say - are you aware? Do you feel ´AWARENESS`?
William: Yes.
Edwin: Yes - so just - is it more 'I am aware ' or is it ´I feel AWARENESS`?
William: I feel awareness.
Edwin: It`s ´AWARENESS` yes. The 'I' is more already gone. So feel the ´AWARENESS` - just feel ´AWARENESS`.
William: It feels there`s an intense aliveness.
Edwin: Keep feeling the ´AWARENESS`.
(some time later)
Edwin: What is now ´AWARENESS`?
You feel still ´AWARENESS`?
William: Yeah - there was a moment when it - I wasn't so aware of it or something.
Edwin: Mhm, keep on feeling this ´AWARENESS` or ´AWARENESS` itself.
William: (laughs) I was just laughing because somewhere in the back of my mind a voice is saying that none of these people will ever talk with me again.
Now there`s a new level.
Edwin: Yes.
William: And it`s in the moment now a little bit more fear coming up now.
Edwin: Aha so what about ´AWARENESS`? You still feel ´AWARENESS`?
William: The ´AWARENESS` dimmed right down suddenly.
Edwin: Is it still there or is it something else now?
William: No. If I come back to ´AWARENESS` it expands again it becomes intense.
Edwin: Yes but is it ´AWARENESS`?
William: I'm coming back now to a sense of 'ME'.
Edwin: A ´ME`?
William: ...(??)...
Edwin: Yes. I was waiting already for this because now you recognize automatically that the next thing will show up for you to hold in silence.
William: Aha.
Edwin: You said already to me that I can now already see the next thing.
William: Aha.
Edwin: You do, don't you? A next thing.
William: Yes.
Edwin: Then the process will happen automatically - if you keep on doing this, self-inquiry is happening - it is not a mental process anymore when you ask the question 'WHO AM I?` because automatically the next thing you are will show up. And the silence, the deeksha, the sri murthi, the kundalini, the ananda mandala, you name it will blow it away.
William: Thank you very much!
Edwin: Yes, my pleasure - I am always very glad to meet somebody who goes for it sincerely.
Edwin (to Roland): I saw you looking at your watch. Is there a time restriction?
Roland: No.
Edwin: No?
Roland: No no time limits. As long as you want.
Antje: You are the limitator.
Edwin: There is no concern for today either. So any other questions?
Antje: Yes I would have one.
Edwin: Yes?
Antje: After you had the skype with Roland..
Edwin: (now I only see your...yet it is better..)
Antje: I told you that after the skype with my husband I got the full energy and I was in a very very wonderful state. It felt like bliss and there was no boundary between me and the air and we were just sitting there for hours and then went to bed and it was wonderful. And I awoke in the middle of the night may be at half past 3 and could feel that wonderful state or whatever you call it the emptiness in my head and I enjoyed it. But then within half a second it changed completely and I could observe all the thoughts coming in and I tried to be only the observer and let them go but the state changed. There was suddenly like nothing had been before.
Edwin: Yes. It seems like that when the mind comes back that nothing has changed.
Antje: And I, I tried to remember what you had told my husband and to do the self-inquiry but the more I tried the more the thoughts came in and the more the mind took over. And so I let it go and thought well...
Edwin: Yes. So the tricky part with self-inquiry is if things are already silent you have to ask the question and the question becomes very mental. So you ask a mental question waiting for a mental answer or asking a mental question waiting for something you don´t know. But if everything is already silent and the mind comes back alive what can also happen - which is saying the self-inquiry - is instead of asking the question you just let the silence, yet let everything take place in the silence. And that which is not silent is like holding it but not holding it. It does - you can view the thoughts but you automatically realize - and this is the self-inquiry question basically but without asking it - that somebody is there who is viewing it who is understanding that there are thoughts. Thoughts is a bit of a tricky one because it goes very deep. A lot of layers which are in front of it will go stand in the way. Now when this happens in dream - and in the dream state the I the ego is not so active is not so strong - but for most people it is very difficult to do self-inquiry because the dream just happens. *** please see Edwin`s comments to that passage above at the end of this transcript***
(Antje: Just a second. My husband said I can sit down and you would also see me.)
(Edwin: Yes. Everybody can. Yes)
(Antje: OK, thank you.)
Edwin: What seems which is a very - it is the thickest layer that I have the thickest onion that I have encountered in self-inquiry myself is the thoughts. It`s basically the core of the mind. And the best way to tackle that and to handle it is self-inquiry and the deekshas is going do away. By do away I mean you feel the thoughts you give thoughts a space and then who is receiving it? Initially I think. So you can cause thinking. And then there is a thinker because the thinker is causing it.
So you just hold on to the thinker. Let the deeksha or the silence just dissipates the thinker. But the thinker will dissipate quite fast because there are no more thoughts. It`s gone. And then you think ok that`s it. But then say to yourself ok I gonna think again. And then you start thinking again and there is the thinker - so you go up and down.
The thinker disappears then you start thinking again then thinking disappears. You will find, initially you think this is a stupid process because the thinker always repeats and always comes back like a phoenix. But this is not really true because in due time you`ll find that the thinker will get a hole in itself. It is like a big mass (Edwin shows a fist) in the beginning but there suddenly is something empty starting to grow inside it. And this emptiness spreads. It gets bigger and bigger. And over time it swallows up the whole thinker.
And then what Bhagavan says you`ll find out is not just true but just a fact of life because you cannot return it to the previous state - that there is no thinker. Because you can say now there is no thinker but if you go to I don`t know a shopping mall you start to think by ´what do I want?`. So you think. It´s not a neighbor (person next door) who thinks you think. The whole way you make this true is when this completely disappears and never returns. Then thoughts are still happening without a thinker.
And then the simple question is again: who is receiving the thoughts? Where does the thought starts and arise from? You`ll find out that it`s not just automatic. It is actually an ego it is you again who starts it. But it`s not so strong it is like a whisper it`s like a very silently - you will start the thoughts and then you immediately go to the source. Which is not really a feeling of you starting it but yet there is a feeling of you starting. It`s a bit strange. You cannot see this when the noise is too loud. So it has to calm down.
So the thinker has already has to burn away before you will be going to that. And before you know it you will find out that the thoughts will get less loud and less loud. It is getting more and more quiet. Before you know it at times for example say to yourself I do this process now let`s come back to normal to reality and like you wake yourself up. When you feel something is coming back you are coming back and this you is also the same thing that causes the thoughts.
So when it dissipates or disappear that with deekshas then when you say to yourself I wake up nothing happens. You remain in this middle silent path. And then you keep on going deeper and deeper. You can compare it to the state of dreaming and waking up. When you find out what happens on your transition from dream to wake up somebody is coming alive somebody is waking up. You coming and like the dream state it becomes more vague you don`t really understand it anymore we don`t remember it and you are there. What is you who is there is disappearing. And this dream and this wakeful state are one and the same. When you go deeper and deeper into this thoughts layers you will find out that that which comes out of deep sleep which is you which wakes up is yet another illusion and when that...(??)... the whole mind disappears. There are no thoughts.
There is silence. And this - a thick onion a very thick onion. It takes a lot of peeling. But you`ll find in dream - because the I is not so much awake anymore you are not here - in dream it is, you have the silence more and you can feel the thoughts coming up but they don`t have so much influence anymore. So when that happens you can feel the thoughts and you can go to the source. Why did it start the thoughts? And you will find out the one who is searching for the start point is the same as the one who starts it. Yes.
But start where you are now. If you can think if you can cause a thought start with that. Cause a thought. And then go to the one who is causing it. And slowly peel to the less obvious layers which are behind it. Yes. Otherwise you will be frustrated because the less the other items don`t work and you think now I am here and now it`s gonna work and you are stronger there and the more you are there the less it works. (laughing)
Antje: I will try it again. I mean I tried to come to any layers but it made me come more and more into my mind.
Edwin: Yes because you want to come back to do the process. You want to do the process because you want to return to that state. The more you come back that wants something, the more it blocks. If it`s too much you can go in front of the sri murthi. And you can say ´all right now I am going to start thinking and let Sri Bhagavan look at me the one who is thinking`. Let`s see what happens.
Antje: It`s a great idea. Thank you.
Edwin: Yes. That is quite effective as well. Yes.
Antje: Thank you.
Edwin: But you can also receive the deekshas from it. So instead of just being silent like most people do, ok let`s see how silent I can be while receiving a deeksha. You can also say I am just going to start thinking while receiving a deeksha and then also reverse it and see the one who is thinking. And let this deeksha just flowing on you to flow on you the one who is thinking. Yes. Then the magic starts.
Antje: Thank you.
Roland: So you mean in such a situation you may give yourself a deeksha?
Edwin: When you are in a deeksha group like you are now or you give each other deeksha, while you receive a deeksha you can receive it with a blank mind or just a nice silent feeling you have or you can actually say ´well I am going to start thinking`, ´I`m just going to cause thinking while receiving a deeksha`. And now you receive a deeksha and you start thinking you also go to the point, all right, I started it. You go to the ´YOU`start thinking.
And then that ´YOU` really disappears fast because of the deeksha. Then you go back to start thinking. And while you doing this up and down you will find that this emptiness inside you that start to grow. Yes. And it will take over. But like a tree is slowly growing. You can give water, the deeksha - so keep on growing. Before you know it it`s there which you cannot explain - which has always been there actually but that`s another story. Yes.
Any other questions?
Antje: Thank you very much.
Edwin: Yes. No problems.
Antje (to the group): There are no more questions?
Edwin: No more questions?
Roland: I have one.
On Friday when we did our test skype you mentioned something about trees which should burn down and we should not avoid to meet the trees but - you see I can`t repeat it so if you could join again this picture...
Edwin: Yes.
Roland: ...because I could feel it was very strong but somehow I didn`t understand it really.
Edwin: Yes. I can surely repeat because you have different figures of speech like poems. The one I said with the tree is when we slowly give water and keeps on growing. That`s like with deekshas where you keep on feeding with deekshas the body and the mind and the ego system you`ll find out this emptiness keeps on in growing when you compare a tree to the emptiness.
Now what we said Friday was a bit otherwise it was something different. That is when you compare the mind to a tree which is purely opposite. So I said most people who are doing both - a lot of people who are doing not self-inquiry but advaita the non-duality - they leave everything behind.
They don`t bother with the mind they does, they leave everything in not knowingness, leave everything behind. So you do not give these trees any more water. So the trees will die. But the trees will still be there. Though you don`t pay any attention to them but the trees are still there and trees have seeds. So when something happens in a time may be in droughts or may be something else it is possible that the seeds will get water again and start to grow. And the trees are still there though you don´t feel the strong presence the strong silence with them. There is silence but there is a difference between one silence and one other silence for example. And that is the trees are still there.
With the self-inquiry I compare that to burning the trees which are still alive. So when you burn it away it`s gone including the seeds. And it can never return. It will not even make sense to have it or have the possibility to return because the seeds are gone. So you can leave everything behind as untouched just believing of knowing the truth believing the shit behind because it has nothing to do with you and which is true.
But then the trees will die but it will still be there. Or you can burn everything down to the ground and whatever you wanted to leave cannot be released because everything is in fact an illusion because it`s not there anymore. For example you can leave the ´I`-feeling and the ´ME`-feeling behind. You don`t do anything with it. It has nothing to do with me you recognize.
But it`s still there like thoughts. You know thoughts come in and you don´t do anything with but it`s still there. So the trees are still there but it doesn´t bother you anymore. Now what I prefer is just to blow everything out and burn the trees down and there are no thoughts. There is no thoughts happening.
There is no ´I`-feeling happening. There is no ´ME`-feeling happening. There is no ´AWARENESS` happening no ´CONSCIOUSNESS` no ´EXISTENCE` no ´SELF` no I am nothing. And you cannot create it back as there is no mechanism or nothing that exists that can even make you understand in yourself that just was there or you cannot create this feeling. The only feel that which is there is in other people.
And the other people is who you are. Everything becomes you. It is not that you become everything. Everything becomes you because there is nothing there in you anymore. So that is the difference between explaining the trees. It`s - everything has its - it`s not exact it is not exact the answer. But it`s just a pointer you know. You can leave the trees behind don`t feed them or you can burn them away. Burning them away I call it self-inquiry leave them behind I call it advaita.
Roland: Thank you.
Edwin: Yes.
Any other questions? We can do an...
Monika (translated by Antje): Bhagavan once said everybody has certain abilities and she understood that Bhagavan has said that you can give more power to those abilities that are in you when you give a deeksha to a person then you can strengthen the same abilities in them. So you are awakened and you can give the same to us - is it like this? So the question is as you are awakened is it that you can strengthen the process of becoming awakened in us by giving us the deeksha?
Edwin: Yes. Surely perhaps that seems that which you are is who I am. There is nothing left here. It is it`s strange to explain. It`s simply there is no personal something here. That which talks is like a reflection of you. (short talking in the group) Because those layers which are not here anymore or which are still there with you for example is very strongly views. It`s not really view but you can say view and in this viewing it just burns of. And you cannot even avoid it.
It is like now you can look at a person (yeah close down `cause somebody is trying to call me up again). When you look at a person you can look in different ways. You can look but basically protecting yourself like building a new wall around you and nobody can really touch you or penetrate that wall. You don`t really want to penetrate the other person either through that wall.
So you have a little nice protective view who talks to another person who probably has the same wall and basically there are two walls and some frequencies passing through it. And that is what you call talking or communicating. But there is another way by not using the wall and becoming the other person. It`s not really you becoming it but you - it`s just the other person there. You don`t even recognize that there is you talking. It`s just the other person and you are just one with the other person. And if the other person does this to you as well then actually you are talking to yourself.
Everything which is felt as being existent or real, starts to burn of. When you do that for a little while you`ll find out you does look at each other without saying anything anymore. You just enjoy each other. And it`s just this silence which is giving you so much joy that it radiates. It`s spreading. And this joy burns out anything which stands in its way. So the more that you do not use the wall to communicate or to look at people you will actually start to touch those layers. Because the truth is that which you looking at is who you are.
And that which you feel, is not you and is not the person. And the truth will burn it. And joy remains. So it is almost like an automatic thing that will happen the more you are gone. (laughing)
Now you can translate it. I am not so good in your language. I can speak it but not so much.
You want to translate a little bit or?
Antje: We will do all the translations afterwards. That`s fine. We will do all the translations afterwards, Edwin. Thank you.
Edwin: Ah, all right. Perfect.
Antje: Then we can enjoy you a second time.
Edwin: Yes.
Gabričle: I would like to know if you had on your way to awakening if you had any problems with your memory?
Edwin: With the what?
Gabričle: With the memory.
Edwin: Oh, ja ja ja ja. (big laughter in the group)
Ohh I had many troubles for sure. Yes. You are so much used to using memory to function to remember where you put your keys and remember what you want to buy etc. etc.. The mind is much used. You don`t see that in nature in our nature anymore or any life form. It lives now and if it likes to eat something it eats it now but it doesn`t really plan or make all kind of mental constructs to remember where you put things. It`s like an automatic reaction - it knows.
Now what happens with me is that I just got used to putting things always at the same good space. My keys my telephone are always at the same spot. And when I go to work I have this jacket and each pocket in my jacket has to be filled with something - otherwise I forget something. So I don`t remember I have to take this with me this with me this with me. No it is just you feeling in a now is there something missing in the pockets? Yes or no. If nothing is missing then I remember I brought everything. But not remembering. Never go to the shopping mall - which is not really a good thing that`s why I let my wife do the shopping because I spend always too much money - I go in the mall and I just say what I like at that moment. And I just fill up the car. There is no planning or anything.
It can arise when you know there is no rice more at home because yesterday you had not you could not eat rice because the rice was out. And when you go through the supermarket you do not remember that you want to buy rice it does more by when you see rice and it happens by itself that you pick up the rice ´oh yeah, I need that`. But there is no memory going on. It`s just like a breathing a heart beat a respiratory system a blood circulation. You don`t have to remember to speed up the heart if you run you know. It just happens. Or you have to breathe faster because you need the air the extra oxygen when you run. It would be pretty bad if you start to think how to breathe when you run because then it will get you into trouble.
It does happen the same with the automatic things of survival, this happens. You can do very well without the memory, actually much better because you view everything very sharp and very clear. There is no memory interfering it there is no thoughts going in between that which you see and the silence so to speak. Somehow you don`t need the mind or the thoughts. You have to get used to you can lose stuff but then you will write things down
Gabričle: I am good with that. Thank you.
Edwin: So any other questions?
Marie-Claude (translated by Gabričle): She would like to know how do you know that you are awakend? Is it something that happens slowly or suddenly? How do you know if you are awakened? When can you say that you are when can one say that he or she is awakened?
Edwin: Yes. That`s a very difficult question. Because if I ask the question how do I know? It doesn`t make sense. Because the question it`s a silent spot I am so amazed to hear the question. That is why I can only speak from what I hear from other people. Now what do you know? (it is visible Edwin has to think about it) It is actually - no I have no idea, no I cannot mirror myself. I cannot view it. It is it is not a knowing either because who knows? There is nothing to say about. Really nothing.
You can say what Bhagavan says that in 30 minutes if all the charges have gone again but that`s a little bit a vague thing as well, if you ask me, which is a fact but what about 32 minutes? Is it close to awakening then? And who is awakening? At a certain point you don`t ask the question anymore. It`s not so much that you know. You can say that the mind knows its own smallness, its own non-existence, its own insignificance.
Then you say when the mind recognizes that it does not exist then that which is behind the mind is awakened. But that what is behind the mind was always there so you don`t create anything new. And you don`t grow or change it either. It has always been there. It is just the mind that recognizes its own mistake. The mind can recognize its own insignificance its non-existence its non-importance its non-aliveness. It has nothing to do with aliveness or with anything which is true. And then this recognition of the mind itself is steady enough and the mind can let go its power and let the truth take over. Some people say there is a specific experience and a specific spot in time when this happens - it does not make sense to me because if something happens in time then there must be something there that experiences the experience called the awakening. This cannot be. That`s which awakens was always there it is just that the mind slowly goes to sleep to give way to the truth. That`s the best I can say to answer this question.
Yes. Anybody else? For an easy answer ;-)
Roland: When you did this exercise with William just a few minutes ago and then at a certain point William didn`t know who he is and then you said ´ok that`s a point where a lot of people are saying that but then there are many thousands of more layers within this onion who should disappear`.
Edwin: Yes.
Roland: So I mean if we have thousands of layers which have to disappear that sounds for me like a long long way to go.
Edwin: It is but this is already a point after awakening itself. In books like Ramana Maharshi and people we came in contact with. When you ask the question Nisargadatta to the same story from ´who are you?` and then people say ´oh I don`t know`. And normally then the conversation starts from there that ok that is the right answer or the wrong answer. But there is no right or wrong answer.
The thing I am telling you is I am searching for the trees. I am not searching ´I don`t know` and you leave the trees behind. I say go searching for the trees. I don`t know if other people do this or not. It`s quite effective in locating them. Because if you can say I don`t know first of all if you are honest with yourself there is somebody speaking. There is somebody listening to the question. There is a there are all kinds of constructs in the mind. And emotions itself are also that which you believe you are.
Initially you feel the emotion or better yet, you do react to the emotion like fear and then you run away and then if you have a quiet spot to experience the fear then you feel the fear. And when you go even closer to it you`ll find out that who you are and the fear is one and the same thing. And then you go really into the core of this fear. And when you go to the core of the fear the ´you` then it will blow up. And there is no feeling of fear or nor the charge of it. It is gone and you don`t even remember what it was about.
What I can say is when you do the search you can say well what about ´AWARENESS` what about ´CONSCIOUSNESS` what about ´EXISTENCE`? You can also say who is hearing who is receiving those perceptions? What about perceptions? I have perceptions. What about experiencing perceptions itself? What about thoughts? Other people leave the thoughts behind. What about thoughts happen automatically?
When you go deep enough, you find out there`s always an ego there behind every thoughts and that is the core of the mind. And I have read some books and it seems like only a few people that really blown up the mind completely like Robert Adams said. A full awakening a moksha there is nobody left to say anything anymore. And that is deep! That is the truth. You swallow up the whole mind. The whole mind is being experienced, the bliss is being experienced.
That`s the only thing there. That swallows up everything. You cannot talk about it you cannot reason about it you cannot do anything about it. It is the truth that will eventually pull you there anyway. But there are a lot of distractions on this way. But I found if you ask very silently or let the question or let the feeling of who you are automatically come up in a presence or in a silence it`s an automatic process. It`s automatic as it gives you the next and the next and the next you. If you are stuck in the mind and you cannot find any ´I's` or ´WHO AM I?` anymore and when you keep on running around the tree but you never find a tree because you know the answer there is no you in the truth and then you keep on running around the tree because you say I don`t know. Of course you can speak. Yeah. There is something. (note from Edwin: a tree is being compared to an I or you feeling - so when you cannot feel and just say I do not know, you will never find the trees)
Cosmic beings for example they don`t speak either cosmic beings, Mother Meera I don`t see her speaking, and there are some people who are in this quiet spot. Of course it`s difficult to judge it. There is progress when Bhagavan speaks and may be you come out of that state. I don`t know. Yeah
Johanna: Those people I read books about them, a lot of them say that there is a certain trigger-point. I remember Byron Katie there it was a cockroach running over her feet. Satyam Nadeen (who wrote the book) from `Onion to Pearl` there it was a certain moment in prison. I just read now a very beautiful book from Jeff Foster and I liked this sentence so much: he said that suddenly he saw the beauty of a chair and in it the beauty of what the chair was in service of. So there must be some trigger or some moment or some click that wakes you up into all that we are talking about here. It`s not that the layers come off slowly but then there must be a thing that ...
Edwin: Yes it`s what I experience it is still the domain of the ego. You have moments when you really enjoy a flower or when you enjoy the sunset because the mind is silent the mind doesn`t bother you anymore. And this is all the way up there if you want to call it anywhere. But if it is an experience it is still ego based.
May be not such a strong ego anymore but it`s still based in duality. Yes. And every experience like the moment when you suddenly see the beautiful flower when you recognize wow I am not distracted by the mind any more it`s a beautiful experience in that moment. This is something nothing wrong with it. But as long as it is an experience it is an experience. It comes and it goes. And this has nothing to do with you. Well that`s a tricky one. Yes. The joy - a lot of people asking if there`s nobody there to feel the joy how can you enjoy it? Now here comes a very very interesting question which is a new return. If there is joy who felt it? In the first place. You sometimes have a feeling like for example in the sunset or like what you said with a chair if somebody see the beauty of the chair...
Johanna: No it`s more feeling it`s not seeing.
Edwin: ...or felt the beauty. If you really look into it you will find out that is also not felt. If it is felt it is not that either. The joy which is behind it is not felt. The joy is a strange thing. Nobody receives the joy. Joy is not felt. Happiness is felt. Love is felt. You can say bliss is felt. But the joy which you are, it is not felt. It is not a personal feeling. So if you feel the joy it`s actually that you feel yourself. The ego feels the truth. And when the ego disappears, the joy remains.
I noticed it once myself. Now what is it if you if there is nobody there to experience the joy what is joy then? But there is another question arose while there is joy who is there to experience? You find the mind is asking questions that of another part of the mind and it does doing a thing and it has nothing to do with the joy that is there. It`s just trying to call the joy up. So sat chit ananda are one and the same thing, ananda is the joy which is not to be felt of who you are. The ego can feel it and tries to hold onto it and take it as an experience and I - how can I get this back? The truth is you are not doing anything about it.
(laughing in the group)
Anybody else?
Antje: No thank you very much.
Edwin: Shall we do a little meditation there together?
ALL: Yes.
Edwin: If you can do you can choose to just look at me or close your eyes. It doesn`t really matter. Sometimes look at me but it`s a bit stronger. But I leave that up to you. Don`t worry.
1:42:10 - 1:51
(at that point in time a 9 minutes meditation with a very powerful eye deeksha is starting)
Edwin: All thank you.
ALL: We thank YOU, Edwin!
Edwin: Anybody wants to say anything or share anything before we close up?
Roland: Nobody is here. (all laughing)
Edwin: That`s good. Because it`s a question on my point ..(all laughing).
All right.
Antje: Can we meet you again?
Edwin: Yeah, just write me or write my wife better to say she keeps track of the schedule. Let`s see what we will do.
Antje: We would appreciate it very much.
Edwin: I must thank you for the ...(...??...).... and I hope
Antje: Oh can you repeat please there was an interruption, Edwin.
Edwin: Sorry what did you say?
Antje: There was an interruption. Could you please repeat what you said in the last two or three sentences?
Edwin: Oh I - there is a thing with memory I don`t know. (big laughter in the room) Sorry I did not write it down so.
Roland: And do you agree that we share the recording which we did of this session?
Edwin: Please do please do. Yeah yeah yeah. You can - that`s a good thing with the first question we had from the gentleman in the back - that his sample can be shared by others. It might have a different time frame for others may be different layers but generally that which is there the deeksha was touching. And the satsang on the end with silence was touching. So please enjoy the deekshas as well on your sides and let the grace take over.
Gabričle: Will I have one more question?
Edwin: Oh yes please.
Gabričle: When we do self-inquiry at home by ourselves...
Edwin: Yes.
Gabričle: ...you said when we come to a point where we feel fear or resistance you advised to take deeksha. Can I give deeksha to myself at that moment?
Edwin: Yes. In my experience is it better to go to a big or large sri murthi and look at the sri murthi and ask Bhagavan to look at you. And you will find out the ´you` is not available at that time. It`s the same as the fear when you feel the fear as a distance from you and you feel that when you look in the sri murthi that you and the fear become one and the same and then it will melt away because if you give yourself deeksha it might be another you that is working to help yourself.
Gabričle: Yes - thank you.
ALL: Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very very much Edwin. It was really amazing. Bye bye.
Edwin: Bye bye.
__________________________________________________________________________
***Edwin`s comments to a passage, where he is speaking look at ***
1:03:06
Edwin: Yes. So the tricky part with self-inquiry is if things are already silent you have to ask the question and the question becomes very mental. So you ask a mental question waiting for a mental answer or asking a mental question waiting for something you don´t know.
If everything is empty and silent, in other words no I feeling or a me feeling or any other feeling - self-inquiry as a question has no use. What happens if you do it anyway is that you ask the question: who am I, and the mind cannot find anything or replies with an answer which is useless such as: nothing, the absolute, oneness or I don't know, etc. Why is this useless, because nothing is happening and the mind is asking a question and the same mind is answering it without seeing the fact that the question and answer are one and the same. It is a rat race where the start point is also the end point every time you ask the question and get an answer or not.
But if everything is already silent and the mind comes back alive what can also happen - which is saying the self-inquiry (hereby I mean when you ask the question who am I when the mind is back alive) - is instead of asking the question you just let the silence, yet, let everything take place in the silence.
So hereby I mean, do not ask the question on a mental plane as above (rat race) but asking it silently. Now asking silently is actually not asking it at all but merely knowing and feeling the question. It is like knowing the question and the search happens automatically without having to ask it. The big advantage of this is that the mind itself will be found, because anything talking or asking or thinking will light up as being the answer to the silent question who am I. Knowing is the absolute, the truth, parabrahman (I am not referring to the knowing you can feel, but the knowing that is)
And that which is not silent is like holdingit but not holding it.
Now this is indeed tricky to explain in duality, but let me try. Out of the absolute, out of deep sleep and true knowing (turiya) arises the dream state and later on the wake state. The dream and wake state is the IT and the one holding it is the absolute. But in truth the absolute is not holding anything but it arises as CHID as knowing. Sat is the absolute, chid is the knowing and ananda is the IT.
In pure silence, there is only SAT. When the universe awakens it awakens as chid and that is who you are without being able to experience it. When something can experience the chid it is ananda. Now the strange part here is that sat, chid and ananda are one and the same - parabrahman. Hence Om satchidananda parabrahman ...
You does - you can view the thoughts but you automatically realize - and this is the self-inquiry question basically but without asking it - that somebody is there who is viewing it who is understanding that there are thoughts. Thoughts is a bit of atricky one because it goes very deep. A lot of layers which are in front of it will go stand in the way. Now when this happens in dream - and in the dream state the I the ego is not so active is not so strong - but for most people it is very difficult to do self-inquiry because the dream just happens.
The further away you are from the truth, in other words the more awake you are, the more difficult it is to see and find the thinker, because there are too many. Also when it get quieter, the body reacts as though it is asleep, and the mind will start to show dreams. These dreams are created by you (the ego) and this has to be found in self inquiry - hence the difficulty is that most people cannot do self-inquiry when they are dreaming. When you dissolve the subjective ego in dream state you enter a state called clear light dream. To go even deeper is that from deep sleep the first thought creation starts with an I AM, which is the dream itself (chid), and that has to be caught as well. When that is caught the whole mind stops and no more thought will arise and no more dream - only turiya will persist.
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